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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:55 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Terence Kennedy wrote:
Why do you guys like 3 degree pins?


Good question and other than being gluttons for punishment because 3 degree pins are far less available than 5 degree pins here's the reason but the reason is also a bit of a nit and purest point if you will.

We drill our pin holes with a 3/16th brad point bit (well at least I do with mine... :D ). If you were to draw this out on paper showing the 3/16" hole going though the bridge, the top, and the bridge plate. When a 5 degree pin is properly reamed with a 5 degree reamer at the very bottom of the hole in the area of the top and bridge plate the reamed hole or the reamer is narrower than the original 3/16" hole. This creates a bit of slop where the string balls are and can lead to some damage over time with tendency of strings over time to want to work themselves up the pin holes....

Conversely drill the very same 3/16th" hole with your brad point bit and then ream to 3 degrees with a proper 3 degree reamer and the space at the bottom of the hole where the reamer departs the 3/16" hole is either nonexistant or lesser than with a 5 degree pin and ream. Less to no slop, less wear over time, and likely something that so few people will ever understand that it's also questionable what's the point... :? :D Variables are bridge, top, and pate thickness as well as pin diameter.

In any event even 5 degree unslotted pins are so very superior to slotted pins that this is really where most of the benefit is as far as prolonging the life of the bridge plate. Factor in 3 degree pins and it's a bit more so but again most of the benefit is with unslotted pins be they 5 or 3's.

Make sense? Wish I could draw and post but I just never figured out how to do this... [headinwall] :D



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Terence Kennedy (Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:28 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:13 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Dave Rickard wrote:
Hesh wrote:
.... but the further we stray from convention the less likely it will be that others understand our original intent and would be willing to preserve it. Just a thought but NOT being critical!!! :D


This reminds me of a dread I built with a wedge body.
People would play it a comment on how comfortable it is.
Then I'd show them that the bass side was thinner than the treble side, then they'd turn up their noses and ask why I would do something like that.


Hey Dave! Yeah we go to all kinds of lengths to provide real value with feature after feature, many that are not immediately apparent to the naked eye either and what a huge part of our market might have to say about this is: how does Martin do it.... [headinwall] :D

:? :D From bone nuts, compensated bone saddles, uber precision in fret slotting, saddle locating, CF braces, individually voiced tops and backs, careful selection of tone woods, tuners, making bridges less high on the treble side, semi-hemi-fret ends, EVO, stainless, ADI bracing/tops, you name it and what folks may focus on is the color..... :o :lol: [headinwall]

Oh well we do this because we love it....


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
Hesh, I invited criticism on the idea. I take your point and agree. I suspect, if this showed up in your shop, you would know why it was done (remember the pins would only fit in backwards). If it showed up in a lesser shop and they undid it, I suppose there would be no harm. Obviously, the same rules would apply about instructing the original recipient of the proper way to install the pins. Hopefully, the next owner would be told about it as it changed hands. That said: I bought my first car a 1974 Cutlass Supreme from my brother when I was 15. One day I was working on it and whatever I needed to do required removing the battery altogether. When I was putting it all back together, the battery cables would not reach. No mater what I did, how I turned the battery or what I did with the cables, they just would not reach. I don't know how long I sat out there puzzlinig over the fact that I had just taken it out that afternoon and it all fit before I started. Finally, my brother came home and asked what I was doing. I explained the problem; he laughed. He told me the red cable was the negative cable. I told him he was nuts, everybody knows the black is the negative terminal. We went back and forth a few times before I understood what he was saying. From the factory, both battery cables were black and the length and orientation of them would only allow the cables to reach the proper terminal. At some point he needed to replace the negative terminal; unfortunately, the auto parts store only had a red one in the length he needed. What did he care if the colors were reversed, it only fit in one way right. . . Now you would have thought he would have mentioned this to the next owner (or fixed it when he had the chance) especially since the next owner slept right down the hall from him! I'm glad I never needed to jump start someone.

I figured this would be a way to keep some knucklehead from putting them in slot forward when they buy new (slotted) pins to replace the unslotted ones that came with it. They would have seen that the slots on the last set keyed into the splines when they removed them and new pins would not fit with the slot forward. Just a thought. . .


Bryan you either are or will be a great builder with thinking like this where you anticipate every stupid thing that someone may do and make it impossible for them to do it! Good going!!! You are not by chance a process engineer are ya? :D I used to work with lots of process engineers at GE and they thought like you do my friend.

PS: My first ride was Olds Jetstar 88.... Huge and great for teenage dating.... ;) :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Hesh, I'm not a process engineer but I have to consider some of the same things. I work in research for a large Medical School. Currently working in medical oncology specific to the treatment room aspect of our research efforts. I won't go into more so no one falls asleep while reading this. My contribution is not the exciting aspect of cancer research but important nonetheless.

I hear ya, my '74's front bench seat was bigger than the back. . .

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:55 pm 
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These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Bryan Bear (Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:02 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:16 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
Terence Kennedy wrote:
Why do you guys like 3 degree pins?


Good question and other than being gluttons for punishment because 3 degree pins are far less available than 5 degree pins here's the reason but the reason is also a bit of a nit and purest point if you will.

We drill our pin holes with a 3/16th brad point bit (well at least I do with mine... :D ). If you were to draw this out on paper showing the 3/16" hole going though the bridge, the top, and the bridge plate. When a 5 degree pin is properly reamed with a 5 degree reamer at the very bottom of the hole in the area of the top and bridge plate the reamed hole or the reamer is narrower than the original 3/16" hole. This creates a bit of slop where the string balls are and can lead to some damage over time with tendency of strings over time to want to work themselves up the pin holes....

Conversely drill the very same 3/16th" hole with your brad point bit and then ream to 3 degrees with a proper 3 degree reamer and the space at the bottom of the hole where the reamer departs the 3/16" hole is either nonexistant or lesser than with a 5 degree pin and ream. Less to no slop, less wear over time, and likely something that so few people will ever understand that it's also questionable what's the point... :? :D Variables are bridge, top, and pate thickness as well as pin diameter.

In any event even 5 degree unslotted pins are so very superior to slotted pins that this is really where most of the benefit is as far as prolonging the life of the bridge plate. Factor in 3 degree pins and it's a bit more so but again most of the benefit is with unslotted pins be they 5 or 3's.

Make sense? Wish I could draw and post but I just never figured out how to do this... [headinwall] :D


Not to pick nits but why not drill your bridge holes with a smaller, say 11/64ths, bit? It's probably a moot point though... I think most folks just use whatever their reamer's taper is.



These users thanked the author James Ringelspaugh for the post: Hesh (Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:32 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:48 pm 
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The end of 5 degree pins comes out to be around 5/32 which won't accommodate the ball ends on the strings. Though by the time you slot the holes they will fit fine. The only reason to drill 3/16 is either that is what you are tooled for it or you really like 3 degree pins. I personally like 3 degree pins. A bit less forgiving to fit perfect but there is a bit more mass and with the larger hole your good from the start.

Hesh by the length of your posts I bet you beat the !#*? out of that typewriter. :D The one I got was a Smith Corona. Can't believe how much fun it was looking forward to more homework.



These users thanked the author Tim L for the post: Hesh (Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:32 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
pat macaluso wrote:
DannyV wrote:
I put a bevel on the bottom of the bridge pin and it makes it a little easier for the ball to slip past the bottom end of the pin.


Grest idea!

I do the same as most of the rest. I also like to cut a V groove with a sharp chisel where the string comes out at the top of the bridge, tapering it towards the saddle a little. I think it looks nice. It's important to cut them in proportion to the string size.

I think I've finally got enough nerve to try the jigsaw!


Pat that's called "string ramps" in the trade and a useful club to have in the bag.

Yes, when I started, in repair, that's when I learned about ramping. But, I'm saying that I like doing it on new guitars because I like the look and I like to break the angle a tad . Just a little. Crisp chisel marks sing a certain song for me.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:06 pm 
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Quote:
The end of 5 degree pins comes out to be around 5/32

It's not the end of the pin that matters. It's the diameter where the pin comes out of the bridgeplate. On the Stew Mac pins (which are 1930's Martin style) that is about 0.170".
Quote:
Not to pick nits but why not drill your bridge holes with a smaller, say 11/64ths, bit?

I do. Most of the time, I use a #16 drill (0.177").
.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:35 am 
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I too slot with the jig saw. It's the very last thing I do before stringing it up, and it's nerve wracking. In the end, always turns out super easy and controllable though. Two tips. Cover the top with a cork mat or similar. I used to have cork feet on the saw, but the full protection is better. Second, just like a roller coaster, always wait for the saw to come to a complete stop before exiting the hole. Otherwise it can be rather exciting.

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These users thanked the author Mike Lindstrom for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:58 pm) • rtpipkin (Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:02 pm)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:35 pm 
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I just slotted one last weekend and approached it a little differently than past. I put the guitar in the vice with the lower bout down so I had 2 hands to saw with my hand held slotting saws. In the past I had the guitar on the bench, held it with one hand and sawed with the other. Pretty clumsy compared to my new method. What use to take 1/2 hour now takes less than 10 minutes.



These users thanked the author DannyV for the post: rtpipkin (Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:02 pm)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:02 pm 
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Not having the pin hole taper go top to bottom is one of those things that just never sits right with me. I am much happier having to turn the string ball so the corner goes though the slot on a smaller diameter hole but I always picture a customer struggling to get the strings down in there and cursing his luthier so I knuckle under and give e'm the sloppy oversize hole. idunno I'm ready to join/start an educational revolution. anyone with me?


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